Forums - Killing ST Vega Show all 38 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Killing ST Vega (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=36959) Posted by Apoc on 08:23:2001 03:21 AM: Killing ST Vega ST Vega has become somewhat overrated lately simply because ppl don't understand what to do, or seeing matches played in tourneys leads one to believe that that's how those matches should turn out because top players are playing the matches; meaning the outcome is a good judge or calculated as evidence, perhaps. The US ST team is still nothing but rust. But great in comparison. I have my theories on why but that's another argument, guaranteed. The point is, the net wasn't as widely popular back then and sf info wasn't passed like MvC2 info etc.... So info ppl have now seems to really stem from the best ol skoolers who, I have to believe, are just as forgetful as I am. I believe that we have less knowledge than back then. Ppl don't know t he strategies that would force others to even remember the counter strategies. I hope this is making sense. So, with that being said I've decided to kill Vega. There's very simple things that ppl just aren't doingand it makes Vega look so DominantI'm surprised that there aren't more ST Vega's all over the place. So I'm going to just lay shit out at random because if I chose to organize this thing I would never get around to doing it, heheh. Sim Vs. Vega: What's really funny about this is that I think I started this with comments years ago. Vega is not a counter to Dhalsim. In fact Sim counters Vega. Vega is MY counter because I learned long ago how to really fight sim without flying to the wall. That's a key element. Now, every sim I have seen of late lets Vega fly whenever he wants and doesn't REALLY have a clue about how to stop the non-sense. See, back in the day I would NEVER go off the wall against sim without a super and even then I would have to have set him up specifically to maximize my chances of success. So flying is rare in this match-up, rather,it's supposed to be:P Everyone knows the controllability of the move was it's biggest asset. Ppl tendto forget it's problems though. If you fly off of the wall against Sim he can just sit there if he doesn't see a clean counter opportunity. Sim really doesn't have to do anything though he has his counters. When Vega flies, Sim can walk towards Vega or slide with short to get in closer. This forces Vega to decide early(now sim can see it) to cross to the other side first OR he must hold back the whole time to have his proper priority on his slash which he SHOULD use regardless because whether Vega whiffs the Claw Dive or doesn't attack he will be open because of the "bounce". When Vega lands from a claw dive he bounces. He actually bounces when he just jumps(a key thing to remember about Vega)but I'll get into that later. So it's a free hit for sim if Vega doesn't at least touch him. So if he does fly over early sim can pretty much do anything to counter heheh. And the last option Vega has now(since flying off of the wall to begin with you MUST have an intention to commit to once you know you're opponent can shorten your control like this) is to attempt a grab. It's the split second from Vega's last opportunity to land that grab by darting over and when he's so low it will automatically be a slash(and like I said previously, if he's not going to grab he wants to touch you with that claw.) is the critical point a Sim needs to pay attention to. Countering the dive still takes some skill even though the counter is so simple. It's that moment that you pay attention to that makes the counter 100%. Just watch and the second he darts over hit st. jab. Clean hit. If he doesn't dart over, you can keep walking and get a free hit if he doesn't slash, or get close and block the slash then slide as he bounces to gain more positioning. Here's the clincher to all of this. Once you get that down, if Vega flies off of the wall and tries to grab(even super...make sure to jab kinda late for a super)and gets hit by the jab it's a free tick starter for Sim. St. Jab, up down drill(vega can't flip kick because he just lost his charge darting over to grab) into noogie, short slides into noogies till he's dead since Vega can only hit the grab with the flipkick if he charges. The flipkick will go over the slide landing into a free noogie anyway. So strategically, it's pretty fucking stupid to fly off of the wall vs sim EVER without a super...and even with a super it's almost a dumb risk. This is why Jeff Schaefer used to think it was the worst super in the game, because it was so impossible to land. You MUST be tricky. So even a super attempt with Vega could be the move that kills Vega. It's just not a smart thing to do but Sim's nowadays allow it. Learn how to counter with Jab and then go to town on Vega. This is a great match but definately in sims favor. Sim's counters are too good. Counter then attack. Sim is slow to attacknext to Vega but his counter attacks are very fast and set up ticks like nothing. And Vega can't tech a noogie. Oh, and don't use the standing strong tick. It can be countered by a guess even. You give vega time to charge and 2 things to hit with the flipkick. That's a great tick but stupid in this match. If you want to use it you need to mix it up with bait like st. strong then waiting for Vega to flip. But it's not necessary when you can do the exact same thing with the short slide AND give Vega one less thing to hit and if it whiffs it doesn't give Vega time to charge whereas blocking the strong always will. Just stuff like this I'd think ppl would know naturally...rust, I'm telling you. And why teleport away? Vega will bait you that way and you have no strategic advatage in doing so. You teleport the same way ever time and you'll end right next to Vega. Stick to the jab counter or block or let it whiff and hit em or block then slide then RH drill...yadda yadda etc.... Teleporting is a no no unless used occassionally. Jab has no way of letting a sim set himself up:P This match is about sim countering vega's attacks and patterns. That requires quick reflexes as far as sight goes. The counters are one button so...if you can see fast you can work this match even if you're naturally slow moving. Sim can't just throw fireballs or anything. Anything Sim does allows Vega to shift momentum because his jump is so fast. If Sim counters well he can really slow down the match. Both Vega and Sim should be in the middle literally brawling for best positioning for normals. Sim can't randomly drill to get in close because vega can maintain his charge while standing(something I forgot at mwc lol). Vega can't blindly flipkick drills either because it could whiff on a well ranged RH drill...etc. Neither can slide safely...etc. Sim has the advantage on strong ticks and on damage. Vega has the advantage of speed. Both have nice range...but sim can escape anything. Sim can't be ticked to death without a whole lotta risk. Sim can tech Vega's throws. And Vega can't fly off of the wall for free even to run away but Sim can get away free. The match has a ton of levels but this is where ppl have been tripping on it. This is one of the many great matches imo but has become dumbed down. This match is really about footsies and reflexes. Match has been getting played all wrong. heheh I guess I'll do another match tomorrow that I think ppl aren't realizing things on. BTW, I'm not saying doing this completely destroys Vega in this match...just keeps it honest:P And it's a much more interesting fight. Whole lotta babble...heheheh Apoc. Posted by Red Spiral on 08:23:2001 03:45 AM: Re: Killing ST Vega I hated that match for so many reasons, and never got to learn from it because it was so rare. So thanks in advance for the tips and I have a question for you. 1. Which Vega do you use? 2. Do you have tips on beating Vega with Sagat? -Red Spiral Posted by Apoc on 08:23:2001 04:08 AM: Re: Re: Killing ST Vega quote: Originally posted by Red Spiral I hated that match for so many reasons, and never got to learn from it because it was so rare. So thanks in advance for the tips and I have a question for you. 1. Which Vega do you use? 2. Do you have tips on beating Vega with Sagat? -Red Spiral I use new Vega. If you see a reason I shouldn't let me know cuz I sure don't see the use in O.Vega, heheh. Tomorrow I'll breakdown why I think Sagat owns Vega outright. A lopsided Match in Sagat's favor by far. That was what I was planning to go through next actually But I have too much to do tonight I can't spend an hour on a post:/ Apoc. Posted by SilverGear on 08:23:2001 04:27 AM: Seeing as how Vega is my main character in ST I must say excellent job Apoc. Sad to say it but now-a-days people think Vega owns Sim when it's far from the truth. As for Vega Vs. Sagat.....Well let's just say when I see Sagat I trade Vega in for someone else. Anyways keep up the good work Apoc! Just do everyone a favor a space some the sentences please. My eyes hurt from reading it! 0_o Posted by balrog on 08:23:2001 07:02 AM: there are no advantage to use O.vega!btw,i think guile should be counter char for vega. Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:23:2001 04:22 PM: Thanks for posting this Apoc it is very helpful. I am just learning to play the game our arcade just got a japanese ST board I am a scrubby O.Sagat player who cannot wait for tommorow. Posted by crossover on 08:23:2001 06:24 PM: ST - by apoc Bro, what's UP! EMAIL ME when you can alright? fyi I've been playing vega as of late, on a whim..... Posted by Apoc on 08:24:2001 12:42 AM: Killing ST Vega Pt.2 Part 2. heheh Sagat vs. Vega I know most don't realize how to play this match. Sagat's good either way really...but Vega shouldn't have much of a chance. The main weapon ppl aren't using with Sagat lately is st. short. Vega has no safe way of gaining distance against Sagat other than the Rh slide. I hear some ppl thinking about his speed in his jump. What ppl aren't paying much attention to anymore is the "bounce" on old school. You ever throw a character, seemingly, out of the air? Instead of getting technical I'll just say it works similar to "not being able to block when you land". If Vega ever jumps and sagat just holds forward until the last second, even if vega didn't attack, and after he lands, sagat can tiger uppercut and vega cannot block. It actually looks like Vega should be able to block it. But he cannot block the instant he lands. So you can actually do the TU after he lands. So Vega cannot really jump against a good Sagat with any reflexes. Vega cannot fly off of the wall 95%of the time as well. The tiger uppercut does too much damage. Basically, you go off of the wall and Sagat holds towards you...if you ever stick out that claw the Tiger uppercut will hit you since Sagat has closed distance AND if you don't get him to block it he can get a free hit on vega when vega lands, during the bounce. Vega has to really set this up off of sagat's tiger patterns or off of a trip. Sagat can literally walk towards Vega and wait until the last second and either hit Vega's claw or hit him upon landing with a TU or TKnee depending on Range. So Vega's air game is of little use, especially if Sagat's smart enough to whiff a few standing strongs out to make vega seriously time his cross-up wall dive. So Vega needs to out poke Sagat. Well, sagat is doing the nasty tiger shot series: Pay Attn. Anytime you have Vega block a low tiger walk forward and follow it. Start closing distance and just use those Rh ones to keep him sharp. You want to get in close enough to use the st. short to tiger 2in1. Here's the great thing about this move. Not only is it a fast far 2in1 for pressure. But it actually takes out vega's low slide cleanly. That slide is Very necessary in Vega's positioning game. So once you touch him with st. short vega is getting backed up. Once he has only half a screen to work with he has no options. Low strong is all he has. You got the TU to take care of any escape or desperate roll, tigers for pressure with the st.short. You have short controlling the ground area...Vega has to do something evasive. And Sagat doesn't need to differ tactics. Just watch Vega. Just be short when you whiff your standing shorts...don't be afraid of eating that slide on retraction...just tap short again and you get to combo anything you want for huge damage. The short will eat it clean much later than you might think. Lastly, jump straight up with RH. That is a game all in itself. You're not doing much on offense...but it's great bait and kills most anti-airs. Vega has to slide into the flip kick, jab roll w hen he's on the way up, slide under and throw, or do a wall dart. everything but the jab roll can be nailed for huge damage by a well timed TU. You limit Vega's attack options that way and he can kill himself just trying to know what his options are. Aggressive Sagat who closes off the screen to Vega with st.short 2in ones and owning the the air with TU and jump straight up RH. All you need. So many times when I see a vega jump over a tiger...it's clear as day that if the sagat player held forward after the tiger until vega landed then did a TU...Vega would not be jumping over Tigers like that. And that takes away what ppl thought was his asset in the match to begin with. Vega can't jump Tigers like ppl think he can. The bounce is the huge downfall and a great sagat can utilize knowledge of the bounce to where Vega can't do much of anything without taking real damage. It Becomes a washout. Apoc. Posted by balrog on 08:24:2001 01:28 AM: chunli is gd counter char for vega imho Posted by snk dude on 08:24:2001 06:59 AM: Hey APOC: What are your successful/Pro mind games and blocked combo pressure sequences (your strategy patterns that always work), etc. that you do with Vega in Super Turbo ? Please help, it would give me and other people a stronger sense of direction of how to use him correctly. Posted by Apoc on 08:24:2001 05:11 PM: quote: Originally posted by snk dude Hey APOC: What are your successful/Pro mind games and blocked combo pressure sequences (your strategy patterns that always work), etc. that you do with Vega in Super Turbo ? Please help, it would give me and other people a stronger sense of direction of how to use him correctly. Shoot. Heheh. That's like a whole strategy guide right there. But I guess one thing I could say is learn to use your rolls properly. This is never used the way it should be generally. Ppl need to think of their rolls as attacks in time. Ppl generally roll at random from far away or when they know it will combo or be blocked. But those are really attacks flying at someone and the final stab is HUGE on damage and has good priority. The opponent can't tell which roll you are doing everytime. Learn those ranges. Like a fun thing I like to do with the Jab roll is to space myself a bit a way so that when I roll I will still be out of their sweep range AND they can't jump anywhere at that point because the jab ends fast. When you roll like this, a smart player will notice he can't sweep you(and at this range it trades with DPs and such since they meet at the top, and it stuffs just about every special when the tip is landing) and he can't walk into you unless he has a greatly timed DP so most will opt for jumping and crossing Vega up while he rolls...at worst, they figure, they'll end up following and tripping the final stab from behind. They second they leave the ground they get hit with the jab stab for huge damage and stun and Vega's on top of them to boot. I'll jab roll at Bison or blanka if I have it ranged that by the time they notice to react my stab will be fully extended, knocking it clean. The roll can be its' own bait as well. It's perfect for nailing those who like to jump straight up(properly timed...but am I supposed to explain everything?). Also learn when to throw it out. You can't JUST roll at anyone. There are delays in Vega's roll that are counter-bait. When someone gets up and you do a deep forward x'2,(this should be strong or jab)this next move is going to be a 2in1 of some sort to maintain pressure. However, if you do it like a normal 2in1 everytime, the opponent will counter the final stab clean, making you roll shy. There are all sorts of ways to offset the timing of a roll. I used to just hit jab and THEN roll. THe stab would hit under the DP. And ppl with Vega experience will do that. You can walk forward into roll and make them want to counter you "throw" attempt as it becomes a roll. But never do the same roll patterns or use the same 2in1 timing. Changing that makes the move much more scary. Just really understand the roll. I think it's rarely used how it should be and it should be be "vega basics", ya know? Um...and have a real gameplan for character vs.character That's always good:P Apoc. Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:24:2001 05:11 PM: Again thanks for the great info. Hey Apoc you should strategy writing a weekly ST column. That would rule. It is so hard to get reliable info on this game. P.S. is there any way to get out of those SPD ticks once Gief is in? Posted by Apoc on 08:24:2001 10:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by lonelyfighter Again thanks for the great info. Hey Apoc you should strategy writing a weekly ST column. That would rule. It is so hard to get reliable info on this game. P.S. is there any way to get out of those SPD ticks once Gief is in? That would all depend on the character. You'd have to be specific. But there is always a way. Vega can escape in MANY ways and on top of that...it's hard as hell for gief to get in on a Vega that sticks to low strong and st.RH. Apoc. Posted by balrog on 08:25:2001 03:04 AM: not!a gif master will use low punch like strong to counter vega low strong to get in...... Posted by Apoc on 08:25:2001 03:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by balrog not!a gif master will use low punch like strong to counter vega low strong to get in...... You do better by listening Kalok. This is a horrible mismatch. Vega's strong is much faster to hit and retract and so is his Jab. Vega will hit Gief before and after any moves he sticks out like nothing. After once, the Gief is forced to try and get in. St. Rh owns him on the way up etc.... The move to use with Gief is low Rh cuz it stays out so long. This match is a wash out in this game if you just use those 2 moves...then Gief starts running into everything after a bit just trying to break through those moves to catch up on damage. It's just a really sad match. Apoc. Posted by Tiger Bones on 08:25:2001 07:37 AM: Well done apoc lol.. seems one of us is making thwe ffort to educate, very impressive stuff dont agree with all your views but you state ur points real good and i'm sure most peeps that aren't old skool are ganing a stack of knowledge from you... good stuff Posted by Apoc on 08:25:2001 11:24 AM: Thanx TB I figure I'd go through and just put down how and why Vega loses certain match-ups Since B5 is over. Here's a good match that Vega loses for only one reason. Vega vs. Rog. If not for one thing, Vega would own in this match. But if Rog grabs Vega ONCE...it can be over. Rog has an infinite tick on Vega as I'm sure some know. One grab, walk under, low forward-grab. If done right Rog will even grab a reversal. There's literally NO WAY to avoid taking some more damage. If someone has found a way to escape this please pass it along. Understand it will be tested under scutiny. On the Vega side, the best thing to do in this match once grabbed is just take the darn forward! The worst will never happen(ok maybe not never...but it has never happened that I've seen). The worst being low forward,low strong, super. Realistically the worst that can happen is low forward, low strong, low rush. So for one grab Rog is either getting a free combo or an infinite tick. I know taking the hit is unattractive but bare in mind the smart Rog is going for the tick. Though I played the match quite lamely in retrospect, taking the hit with Vega saved me in my match against Watson's Rog. He went under, I went neutral and took the low forward and got away because he was going for the tick. So for the price of a low forward in damage I escaped certain death. Taking the hit is the best thing to do once grabbed. Actually I still think Vega counters Rog. I remember it being a counter match I enjoyed playing. I made up a majority of ways to landing Rog's grab so I knew how to look out for it and to counter it. But I face a Rog a few times a year if I'm lucky and it's usually not with Vega. But all Rog really needs is the one grab. You can avoid it but you need to know what to look for and I've been getting caught the last few times I've played the match(I hate getting caught by shit I know I've countered a million times...but that's what happens when you only play in tournies), and the grab factor alone is such a HUGE advantage. So he grabs you once...if he knows how to time the tick...you are grabbed again and again until you take the hit. If not for this ONE thing Vega would own rog. But since I view us all as rust now...for the record, I'm not saying that Rog beats Vega...though most believe so. Cuz down deep I know when we were all playing I had no fear of Rog against Vega. So, we'll see what happens in the future...but I tend to go with my past judgements on this game. But if you're Rog? Play the throw game utilizing the ducking upper...it has back up on a counter the high rush doesn't have. Just go for that grab and learn the tick timing and Vega's will crumble or at least your throw will be worth 50%. heheh Apoc. Posted by snk dude on 08:26:2001 04:02 AM: Thanks for your help Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 08:26:2001 09:38 AM: quote: Originally posted by snk dude Thanks for your help Apoc. NP It's nice to know it's appreciated Honda vs. Vega. As outlined by Bill G. and (gasp) mentioned by kalok, Honda is a bitch to fight when he backs up in the corner and does nothing. When I say nothing I do mean NOTHING. If he sits there and only moves to do a headbutt to a roll or as anti-air...he should win. Vega can't walk up and throw with his speed because of charged oichios. What I do in this match is get up to them in the corner and depending on my range I hit certain pokes to make it look like he can do block damage or hit me with the headbutt for free and then I back up my whiffs with a reflexes flipkick. To even break a turtle honda you have to have fast reflexes. If not, doing this with honda will probably kill a slow playing Vega. After a double flipkick I could just run all day and he has to get out of the corner to do anything. But I like to have fun:P Anyway, Honda never even has to try to do anything unless he's down on damage. So Vega needs to cause block damage or damage of any sort to get honda out of his shell. The ONLY way I know of to do this is to range my pokes to push away(cuz honda would not be too smart to try and headbutt me cuz I will flipkick it) and then I jab roll from the perfect distance. At the right distance I can hit the headbutt or trade with a reversal even with the end of the claw and if he sits there I'm gonna flipkick anything he sticks out. It's this part that causes the match to progress. Although I've never come across any Honda player that will do absolutely nothing unless necessary. I'm just saying heheh. So at this point when you notice Vega in that range and you see the jab roll...quickly do a but slam. Hit or blocked Vega is screwed now and the game is over. Honda is now up on damage and can now turtle almost for free, if blocked he's on you with ticks for more damage. It's just that one instant that changes the whole match...that one range. Otherwise it can be a stalemate. Like I said though no honda player does this perfectly though. I dance around and poke at the right ranges or just sit there to frustrate him...bust out different flips to bait him into a flipkick or throw etc. But sticking to this, Vega loses outright imo. And that's what I like about ST...CUNNING plays a huge part not simply skill or a great gameplan. This past year I think I'm 2 to 1 vs. Honda with Vega. The one I lost was to Bob Painter at B5 and I opted to pick Rog next instead simply because the match is not as rough. The others lost because one played to try and rushdown and the other got too tempted and tried to headbutt me for block damage and ate flipkicks so he could no longer really turtle in the corner. He could've just sat there. So anyway, here's another character to kill Vega with. See ya next time Apoc. Posted by TS on 08:27:2001 04:17 AM: Very helpful. Would help if you could do Ryu (old or new) next please. Thanks. Posted by Apoc on 08:27:2001 11:38 AM: quote: Originally posted by TS Very helpful. Would help if you could do Ryu (old or new) next please. Thanks. I'm not sure what you're asking here? I'm breaking down how certain characters beat Vega and how. I don't see Ryu beating Vega. Not in any consistant manner. It's a very tough fight for both to be sure when played correctly. Correctly played it is nothing but a foot game actually. Did you want strats with Ryu to beat Vega or vice versa? I think I know the match from both sides but I wouldn't want to do both sides this early in the morning heheh. There is no sure strategy Ryu can employ to guarantee victory. At best, Ryu can limit the match to pure footsies. Lemme know what you'd like and I'll do my best to oblige And this early in the morning I'm lazy and irritable:P heheh Oh, and I think I can break down both old and new or at least I'll give you the best of my knowledge. Apoc. Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:27:2001 03:48 PM: That would all depend on the character. You'd have to be specific. But there is always a way. Vega can escape in MANY ways and on top of that...it's hard as hell for gief to get in on a Vega that sticks to low strong and st.RH. Apoc O.Sagat for example? Posted by Apoc on 08:27:2001 04:24 PM: quote: Originally posted by lonelyfighter That would all depend on the character. You'd have to be specific. But there is always a way. Vega can escape in MANY ways and on top of that...it's hard as hell for gief to get in on a Vega that sticks to low strong and st.RH. Apoc O.Sagat for example? O. Sagat can just reversal tiger uppercut once you have the timing down. But realistically, Geif can't get in on Sagat. St. Forward with sagat is too good and it 2in1s. Using your low forward,st.forward,st.rh, st.frc and jumping straight up with RH along with a TU as back-up! This is one of the really lopsided fights in ST. Zangief cannot get by these moves. At best he can try to clothesline the st. forward which knocks sagat down but he can't tick because of the reversal...he can always bait with the fear of an spd though. Thing is the st.forward will even hit the clothesline. There's probably only one or 2 exact frames where the clothesline can nail the st. forward. To test this just keep hitting st. forward and have someone try to clothesline it...be sure not to use the same timing or rhythm everytime with the kick...and if gief is closer than st. forward range use low forward of jump straight up and get ready to use RH...he'll want to counter it if he realizes what you are doing and sagat can simply land and push him a way with a low forward to tiger or you'll be able to hit his counter with the jumping RH. So if you keep him at st. forward range and hit the forward just outside of him his clothesline will whiff anyway allowing a free hit or combo. Gief has no real way of getting in. The TU does about as much as an spd yet you have a billion more opportunities to land one. I'm really tired but I think that should be all that you need NOT to get ticked by gief using O.Sagat. I wish I could just show you...but really this match is 10-0 in Sagat's favor. Giefs best chance is probably to go for a low Rh to tradeto gain ground or to clothesline a move perfectly...and he has to keep doing that lol. St. forward is so good that throwing it out like that not only keeps him back but it keeps him from trying to jump to gain any ground as well since it will hit him on the way up. Learn the ranges and how to utilize the moves I've outlined and you will win that match Apoc. Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:27:2001 05:07 PM: Thanks alot this should help a great deal. The reason I lose this match so much is because The Zangief user is way better than me. I mean I can be beating Gief to a pulp have him down to a quarter life. Then I make one mistake he gets in and poof I am dead as shit. Posted by Overdrive on 08:27:2001 06:23 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc Honda vs. Vega. I'd like to add that most Hondas have itchy trigger fingers in that it's fairly easy to bait them into doing a jab headbutt at the wrong time. If he's sitting in the corner (which he probably will be 99% of the time), you can put yourself at a range where if you jump in with Vega, not stick anything out, and be able to hop over a jab headbutt. This, of course, only works because the jab headbutt is slow to travel (only the first few frames where his feet are still on the ground are instant and invincible). You can land and jump again before he even gets to you... free hit for you. This actually works with just about any character, but moreso with Vega. His walking speed and jumping speed contribute a lot to the confusion of "what range is Vega jumping at me from". You can easily have Honda guessing at which jumps are legitimate attacks and which jumps are headbutt bait. You can also be at a range slightly farther out where you can stick something out that will whiff, but since your attack whiffs, the first few frames of the headbutt will also whiff (the invincible "reversal" frames). You can land and hop over the slow part of the jab headbutt. On the other hand, Honda is free to use the fierce headbutt, which WILL get to you in time to hit you or force you to block. But in most cases, Honda is going to use the jab headbutt to beat your jump attack (thinking that you're jumping to attack him). Posted by Apoc on 08:27:2001 06:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by Overdrive I'd like to add that most Hondas have itchy trigger fingers in that it's fairly easy to bait them into doing a jab headbutt at the wrong time. If he's sitting in the corner (which he probably will be 99% of the time), you can put yourself at a range where if you jump in with Vega, not stick anything out, and be able to hop over a jab headbutt. This, of course, only works because the jab headbutt is slow to travel (only the first few frames where his feet are still on the ground are instant and invincible). You can land and jump again before he even gets to you... free hit for you. This actually works with just about any character, but moreso with Vega. His walking speed and jumping speed contribute a lot to the confusion of "what range is Vega jumping at me from". You can easily have Honda guessing at which jumps are legitimate attacks and which jumps are headbutt bait. You can also be at a range slightly farther out where you can stick something out that will whiff, but since your attack whiffs, the first few frames of the headbutt will also whiff (the invincible "reversal" frames). You can land and hop over the slow part of the jab headbutt. On the other hand, Honda is free to use the fierce headbutt, which WILL get to you in time to hit you or force you to block. But in most cases, Honda is going to use the jab headbutt to beat your jump attack (thinking that you're jumping to attack him). Very nice addition Overdrive=) Next time I get the chance to get some Vega/honda play I'll be sure to add that to my arsenal of baits Apoc. Posted by balrog on 08:28:2001 10:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc Very nice addition Overdrive=) Next time I get the chance to get some Vega/honda play I'll be sure to add that to my arsenal of baits Apoc. i rank this match is in honda favour if honda just crouching in the corner and do nothing but only doing low punchs to trade.....it is cheap,but the only solution for honda. Posted by cmutt on 08:30:2001 02:34 PM: hey apoc, i just ran into this thread and damn, it's something that i've been needing for a while now. jumpsuit uses vega every now and then and he just whips the shit out of me against most of the characters i use. i just don't know the matchups and i don't play vega at all. i try to ask jesse what i should be doing against vega, but he says he doesn't really know cause he's not really a vega player. the only character i kinda battle him with is ryu. he kills my deejay, thawk (unless i get in on him, which i usually can't), and cammy. those are the characters i use most. here's the thing, with deejay, i've heard that i should use cr. jabs, cr. shorts, and cr.forward against vega to counter his limbs. but this doesn't seem to work much for me. maybe i just don't know how to really employ those moves. plus, once vega starts going off the wall for the cross up i'm stuck on how to counter. i know i can jump straight up with short kick when vega's approaching, but i have no answer for when he's already on me crossing up over and over. same thing with thawk really. i just don't seem to be able to battle with the poking game, and once the cross up dives start i'm sorta at a loss as well. i try to counter vega's limbs with cr. strongs and jabs but it doesn't really get me anywhere. so mainly i tend to just try to jump in with jabs all day and go for tick setups, but that doesn't work all the time. anyway bro, i'd just like to get u'r thoughts on these particular matchups. peace Posted by Apoc on 08:30:2001 04:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by cmutt hey apoc, i just ran into this thread and damn, it's something that i've been needing for a while now. jumpsuit uses vega every now and then and he just whips the shit out of me against most of the characters i use. i just don't know the matchups and i don't play vega at all. i try to ask jesse what i should be doing against vega, but he says he doesn't really know cause he's not really a vega player. the only character i kinda battle him with is ryu. he kills my deejay, thawk (unless i get in on him, which i usually can't), and cammy. those are the characters i use most. here's the thing, with deejay, i've heard that i should use cr. jabs, cr. shorts, and cr.forward against vega to counter his limbs. but this doesn't seem to work much for me. maybe i just don't know how to really employ those moves. plus, once vega starts going off the wall for the cross up i'm stuck on how to counter. i know i can jump straight up with short kick when vega's approaching, but i have no answer for when he's already on me crossing up over and over. same thing with thawk really. i just don't seem to be able to battle with the poking game, and once the cross up dives start i'm sorta at a loss as well. i try to counter vega's limbs with cr. strongs and jabs but it doesn't really get me anywhere. so mainly i tend to just try to jump in with jabs all day and go for tick setups, but that doesn't work all the time. anyway bro, i'd just like to get u'r thoughts on these particular matchups. peace Hey Chris You tell Jesse to quit biting my character! I don't go around busting out Fei Long dammit! heheh j/k You've actually hit on something I've always wondered about! See, sometimes, without the need to calculate, I just know that one character should beat another. Such is the case with Deejay. I've always "felt" that he should be good against Vega. A part of me even thinks he should win the match. But I have no real proof considering the fact that I kill all Deejays. Also, though I can use Deejay, I don't ever get to play against competition. And I certainly never play against another Vega and if I do I never take it seriously since I don't believe that same character match-ups shows anything about your overall ability with the character since if you do one thing that is effective the other player(if competent), can bite your tactics and use it right there. So I'd rather save it for a tourney if you want to use my character against me. With that all said I'll try and help as best I can, but someone who actually uses deejay as their main(does anyone?) and has a lot of Vega experience, would be of better help. Here are some suggestions... When Vega flies off of the wall, in any way, I think you should always be down charging. Then at the last second when he HAS to claw you or is crossing up, bust out the RH flash kick move(forward may be better for this). It should either hit clean, trade, or let you fly away to safety out of the trap. Also, the machine gun upper(I forget which one) should leave you completely invincible on start up. I'd choose between those OR do the same thing with the jab that I outlined for sim. The trouble in this match would be how to control space and the range game. Once you can get one max-out out, you can have frame advantage on your pokes or slide to get closer charging any anti-air to counter a jump or escape pressure. As far as pokes go, have you tried to counter with cr.forward? It should hit clean many times and when it trades, Vega is downed and must block the max-out and now you are controlling the match here as well. Blocking the max-out, Vega has no guaranteed counter for a pressure/tick game. So at this point...you need to know Vega's options up close like that. A flipkick with short MAY counter a tick attempt but that's very risky as long as Deejay watches closely for it and knows that when it whiffs the recovery is very nice so Deejay should try to hit him before he lands as a counter. Vega can also try backflipping AFTER blocking the max-out to help he get into the range he wants to be in in the match. So you need to know the recovery of both flips so that you can get your free hits without fear of him busting out the flipkick to counter you when you try to hit his recovery and you are off by a millisecond. This is why jabs are so good. You can use jabs to charge another max-out to push him back further. Vega will want to avoid blocking again because until he has a clear shot at flying or you whiff a move allowing for the trip, Vega can't be on the offensive. Once you're on top you can do all sorts of fakes like following one max-out so that if he jumps over you he's thrown upon landing(requires timing of course...but is free because of the bounce) and if you're walking forward you're keeping him from reaching the wall most of the time. If he blocks you can do 3 low jabs to max-out(jab one because it gives him options that you are prepared to counter whereas strong and fierce won't let you follow or open him up and now he can get away for free basically)...then after you have him accustomed to things like that you can do jab jab, stand up, low forward as he stands to reverse your tick OR you can just tick him. When you're in this range and your game is tight it is very hard for Vega to move since he can't play the counter game or separate space. To me the match circles around this range, which can easily be started by a trip. Anytime you trip you can play the pressure games like I said and MANY more like cross-ups etc. Outside of this range Vega can play the counter game. I would think that cr. forward and Cr. Frc are better for countering him...but never throw them out randomly. Blocking is a good thing in ST. If Vega flies and you counter like I wrote above, Vega can actually place himself in your perfect range simply by flying sometimes. Also, be aware of the bounce after you block the slash. I used to actually use a blocked air slash as a tick. I'd come down on my opponent after zigzaging to offset any real counter and I'd match Vega's head to their head as I pulled sharply down diagonally. They block and then try to throw and I get the throw I had ppl thinking that this was irreversible because they could never throw me. It was because they'd throw me when I landed and not AFTER the bounce...so though you can't see it I'd be throwing their normal which would happen because I wasn't stable on the ground yet. The bounce properties are totally different on a normal jump and a wall dive. You can hit and throw a normal jump bounce but can only hit the claw dive bounce until after he is stable...and after blocking, heheh, you won't be able to hit him. Now the cat's out of the bag heheh. So whenever you block a cross-up dive realize than you can't do much until after he is solidly standing. Which is a great time to throw if you're close enough. I'll play this match sometime soon for knowledge' sake on Deejay's end and let you know. But I think turtling back and playing for counters until you land a trip(because, realize, Vega can't hurt you much if you don't do anything and are prepared for any walk up throws) and THEN go on the offensive. Knowing WHEN to change momentum is key factor many miss. Well, I hope this helped some at least. I'm sure after a few more posts on this thread I've pretty much destroyed my chances of consistantly owning with Vega hahah. But that was the point. We need some real knowledge on this game again. Plus it forces me to bring back the OG Rog that I'm always wanting to but am always too lazy to, heheh. I'll write about T-Hawk soon...just gotta do some things first and I like to be somewhat thorough or informative. If you find some things about this match that you think are interesting, please let me know It's been nagging me since ST came out that Deejay SHOULD be able to own Vega. But since I never got around to caring enough about Deejay to use him against a Vega I mainly only have knowledge from my end:/ Apoc. Posted by cmutt on 08:30:2001 10:07 PM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Apoc [B] <> heh, i'll tell him. he doesn't play vega too often though. <> that says something about about that matchup right there. if you've never run into a deejay that could give your vega fits, then perhaps the match is in vega's favor. don't watson, romedy, and nelson all use deejay sometimes? <> i don't think i've ever tried the dhaslim jab thing to try to counter, but the rasta kicks i have. unfortunately i probably mis-timed them though cause if i remember right i got stuffed or thrown most of the time. now the hyper-fist is something i haven't tried. as a matter of fact i hardly ever use that move anymore since i thought it lost it's invincibilty at the start. i just figured if it didn't dodge fireballs anymore then it was useless except in combos. i just realized recently though that it can be used against some jump in attacks very effectively. for example: big ross uses blanka and constantly sets up this trap against deejay (along with others) where once he knocks me down or bites me in the corner he jumps back in with a jab. if i block he has priority and he starts biting again. if i'm charged i can rasta kick and i'll hit the jab. however if he thinks i'll rasta kick he jumps in with another move (sorry, i can't remember which) and it beats out my rasta kicks. i kept going though this over and over because this other move was beating out the rasta kicks (along with other moves) and it was driving me insane. it was like he had a free jump in on me. one day i was playing the computer and i noticed the computer deejay do the hyper fist as a wake up counter and it gave me the idea to try it on the blanka situation. sure enough the hyper fist hit blanka's move. but then big ross just started mixing up which move he'd jump in with and i had to choose the right counter. either the rasta kick for his jab, or the hyper fist for his other move. it became a game of either i guess right or he guesses right. anyway, all that just to say i the hyper fist may work on vega. <> yeah, it works really well sometimes but i think my pokes just come out too randomly or something, cause jesse tends to out poke me with the claw. it's mostly the claw that i have trouble against. <> yeah, definitely. every little bit helps. it's the little intriquecies of ST that make the difference. <> cool bro, thanks again for all the insight. we're always getting on jumpsuits ass cause he doesn't know all of the little things and he can't teach us as well as you guys. we clown on him and tell him that he's not ST elite then. he hates that. peace Posted by TS on 08:31:2001 03:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc It's a very tough fight for both to be sure when played correctly. Correctly played it is nothing but a foot game actually. Did you want strats with Ryu to beat Vega or vice versa? I think I know the match from both sides but I wouldn't want to do both sides this early in the morning heheh. There is no sure strategy Ryu can employ to guarantee victory. At best, Ryu can limit the match to pure footsies. Lemme know what you'd like and I'll do my best to oblige And this early in the morning I'm lazy and irritable:P heheh Oh, and I think I can break down both old and new or at least I'll give you the best of my knowledge. Apoc. Strats for Ryu please. Sorry about that. Posted by chun on 08:31:2001 07:46 AM: rog kill vega Posted by DjStorm on 08:31:2001 12:35 PM: Questions for Apoc Hey Apoc I have a couple of questions one how does Vega maintain his charge standing you mention this previously.. Pardon my ignorance I dont play Vega at all.. Although I am interested in learning him. My Primary character is Chun Li. Which is my next question how effective do you think she is vs. Vega? In my personal experience I have handed all but the best Vega's with ease. I have not played a many really good Vega to be honest. I think the best I have faced is Shag. Who was top ten at ECC this year and 5th? at OSC recently.. I will post a typical battle sequence between us tonight as he is coming over for some matches.. Lastly as I am interested in picking Vega as a 2nd or maybe third. So far you have mentioned the matchups that he should have problems with.. What matchups favor him heavily? Peace Storm Posted by chun on 08:31:2001 12:59 PM: chun is vega hardest fight Posted by Apoc on 08:31:2001 06:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by TS Strats for Ryu please. Sorry about that. This is a VERY hard match for Ryu. Imo Ryu needs to force the footgame. Believe it or not even with Vega's quick groundspeed, because of the blocking animation caused by whiffs in old school, Ryu can really dictate the pace of the ground game. If someone lets me bring the match to them Vega is gonna easily make them make mistakes. If Ryu is on pressure it slows down Vega's options, though he can't ever kill them. Ryu pressures by moving forward whenever Vega tries to move back OR hits a low short(NOT st. JAB. Even the best Ryu's make the mistake of using st.jab since it's best in most match ups). This keeps the range Ryu wants to work in to nail on shorts to kill almost anything Vega can stick out at that range. If you watch the match between me and Valle at MWC on Masaka's site you'll see Valle tries this. I'm just trained against this so I react instantly without having to wait to recognize...I adjust my distance instantly and use the only normal that can counter it which is st.fierce and it only works at the right distance. Incidentily, this is the counter on all OG sfs. Funny thing was Alex just chilled on using that tactic since I countered it instantly. I can only think that he respected my old school knowledge and thought I could punish him everytime when really he just got countered. But he knew what to do. If he stuck to that and watched his range he would've made it much harder for me. But in order to play Ryu in this match you need to have Valle-like reflexes and be able to DP whenever Vega jumps. If you can't do that then forget it. A good Vega will diguise his jump ins or do them at the best times to optimize his chances of stuffing any defense attempts. When Vega goes off of the wall without setting you up first use the short hurricane or jump back to adjust distance on either side so that your jumping strong will hit him clean before he can avoid it by ranging to use the slash most effectively. Used correctly the jumping strong is nasty against Vega's off of the wall tactics and can also set up some big damage. But aside from that you want to really master the art of inching forward with the low short and use the short hurricane when vega jumps back to adjust range. Other than that he must flip or go off of the wall which you can walk towards to improve your range too. Just be aware that Vega can bust out that short flipkick at wierd times and the recovery is so good it's a set-up in itself. Keep in mind you can also use the knowledge of Vega's counter fierce on the short against him...use short and watch him adjust his range and then bip that shit off with a dp Long story short...used expertly, the short is the best move in this match, jumping strong nails his off of the wall techniques except the wall dart. And jumping can avoid most of that anyway. Mastering the use of the short will usually just mentally screw the majority of Vega's out there and most will just concede the match simply because they can't figure out how to beat it. Other than all of this play as normal but circle your game around this and Vega's will whine I could write more but things are crazy at my house and everyone is distracting me with bs so this has taken me 2 hours to write with all the distractions and I'm just to frustrated to go any further. Being here sucks at the moment:P heheh Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 08:31:2001 07:20 PM: Re: Questions for Apoc quote: Originally posted by DjStorm Hey Apoc I have a couple of questions one how does Vega maintain his charge standing you mention this previously.. Pardon my ignorance I dont play Vega at all.. Although I am interested in learning him. My Primary character is Chun Li. Which is my next question how effective do you think she is vs. Vega? In my personal experience I have handed all but the best Vega's with ease. I have not played a many really good Vega to be honest. I think the best I have faced is Shag. Who was top ten at ECC this year and 5th? at OSC recently.. I will post a typical battle sequence between us tonight as he is coming over for some matches.. Lastly as I am interested in picking Vega as a 2nd or maybe third. So far you have mentioned the matchups that he should have problems with.. What matchups favor him heavily? Peace Storm Vega maintains charge for a flipkick simply by charging down/back and then the next time you do a sonic boom with kick it will come out. You can keep from walking backward by hitting st.jab or short. This is most useful against sims that use drills to range you in order to tick. W/O that Sim is hardpressed to find a definate way to hit that range to mess with Vega. Now to maintain charge of the off of the wall dive you NEED to have super meter. It's a long story and is outlined in the "My nifty Vega trick" thread. IMO Chun is VERY good against Vega. BUT! the problem here is the one Vega move no one uses(even me lately...I just got rusty with it from not needing it through the years), the air choke slame(normal air throw). Without that move I'd say the match is 55-45 in Vega's favor. Their pokes and positioning games are almost equal against eachother but it's Vega's jump speed and air throw that push him to the clear victory. But in all honestly I've never met another Vega that could hit the air-throw consistantly. You want to jump after them and then hit any diagonal down position and you'll always go under them and throw them. Chun's jump is so slow that it's easy for Vega to go under any moves and throw her...this kills her mobility in that sense allowing Vega to control the match much more and eventually Chun's want to jump to escape. So Vega wins the match but without the airthrow it's a really good match with Vega winning just a bit more. However, this is assuming the Chun Li is really good. If you're not LEET Chun doesn't stand a chance against Vega's footsies. And most Chun's don't understand how to use her st. jab to slow Vega down and help her make up the ground game deficiencies. Lastly, Vega clearly whoops on Zanfief and Guile and Blanka(Yes Blanka. He ONLY has the hop(kkk) in this match and must rely on trickery and mindgames but no real solid range game or strategy I have seen, shows he can win. But there are very few Blankas in the US so...I'm sure something will spring up that'll be new). But the way ST is being played most recently...all things considered, as things are now...Sim is losing badly to Vega. I'm thinking after this thread though that should change. But some ppl are going to see the last major tourneys and think that Vega outright owns sim. Of course it's untrue, heheh. Also lately I'd have to say Ryu is getting wasted as well. But in reality his only complete wash-outs are Zan and Guile. Apoc. Posted by chun on 09:01:2001 08:21 AM: chun beat vega Posted by kill-shoto on 03:27:2002 09:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by Overdrive I'd like to add that most Hondas have itchy trigger fingers in that it's fairly easy to bait them into doing a jab headbutt at the wrong time. If he's sitting in the corner (which he probably will be 99% of the time), you can put yourself at a range where if you jump in with Vega, not stick anything out, and be able to hop over a jab headbutt. This, of course, only works because the jab headbutt is slow to travel (only the first few frames where his feet are still on the ground are instant and invincible). You can land and jump again before he even gets to you... free hit for you. This actually works with just about any character, but moreso with Vega. His walking speed and jumping speed contribute a lot to the confusion of "what range is Vega jumping at me from". You can easily have Honda guessing at which jumps are legitimate attacks and which jumps are headbutt bait. You can also be at a range slightly farther out where you can stick something out that will whiff, but since your attack whiffs, the first few frames of the headbutt will also whiff (the invincible "reversal" frames). You can land and hop over the slow part of the jab headbutt. On the other hand, Honda is free to use the fierce headbutt, which WILL get to you in time to hit you or force you to block. But in most cases, Honda is going to use the jab headbutt to beat your jump attack (thinking that you're jumping to attack him). so do u think honda beat vega? All times are GMT. The time now is 12:59 AM. Show all 38 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.